tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post4557831962638604433..comments2024-02-19T05:18:27.849-05:00Comments on <center>the Q at Parkside</center>: Choice and RaceClarkson FlatBedhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13463744536115119388noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-6309714536237697622014-10-03T17:14:07.990-04:002014-10-03T17:14:07.990-04:00But it sure does feel funny passing the church on ...But it sure does feel funny passing the church on Church Ave & knowing I've got relatives in the graveyard there. And now that they've renamed the Vanderveeer Estates Flatbush Gardens there's not much of us left.babshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08365488181982105888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-55130034168613975802014-10-03T17:11:48.942-04:002014-10-03T17:11:48.942-04:00Don't be jealous @Disco - the branch I'm d...Don't be jealous @Disco - the branch I'm descended from anticipated the "Get Out of Brooklyn" movement by several hundred years, and was already in NJ by 1800, moving on from there to Kentucky. If only my ancestor had stayed and married one of those nice Vanderbilt girls who lived on Ocean (and they did; you can look it up)!babshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08365488181982105888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-36852724463233358052014-10-03T16:13:52.655-04:002014-10-03T16:13:52.655-04:00@babs - #jealous :) @babs - #jealous :) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-4454920454143076362014-10-03T16:04:39.873-04:002014-10-03T16:04:39.873-04:00Heck, yes, I an an OG (original gentrifier)!Heck, yes, I an an OG (original gentrifier)!babshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08365488181982105888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-25001526844978204642014-10-03T11:32:48.764-04:002014-10-03T11:32:48.764-04:00Or as I like to say, no upper-middle white parent ...Or as I like to say, no upper-middle white parent is gonna have a problem going to school with a classroom full of Malias and Sashas.Clarkson FlatBedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13463744536115119388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-34296243323399477082014-10-03T11:31:04.987-04:002014-10-03T11:31:04.987-04:00With respect to gentrification, I tend to think th...With respect to gentrification, I tend to think that these matters relate to race implicating class, and class having implications for race.<br /><br />Race and class correlate in NYC in that larger proportions of blacks are likely to be poor, not that there aren't any lower income whites.<br /><br />Class having implications for race means that blacks who are a bit higher on the economic scale and who might experience racism themselves, might take positions that reinforce their class position, which puts them in direct opposition to those of their compatriots who are poorer.<br /><br />Thus lies the complexities....FlatLenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08125785938110068083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-90270161792728383322014-10-03T11:30:36.454-04:002014-10-03T11:30:36.454-04:00Wow. Then you really ARE gentry.Wow. Then you really ARE gentry.Clarkson FlatBedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13463744536115119388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-16325540185719354672014-10-03T11:22:50.516-04:002014-10-03T11:22:50.516-04:00Well, if you want to really go back, the first big...Well, if you want to really go back, the first big racial makeover of Flatbush was when the Dutch arrived (my ancestor Cornelius Janse Vanderveer among them) around 1639 and took over from the Lenape Canarsee people living there...babshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08365488181982105888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-77104640828931525182014-10-03T09:36:26.531-04:002014-10-03T09:36:26.531-04:00"the "happily mixed race" part was ..."the "happily mixed race" part was largely in the single family neighborhood of the Manor. The single family covenant was a huge factor" Quite true Tim, albeit a bit wider than just Lefferts Manor extending a couple of blocks north and south of LM and skipping down to Parkside I. Not so much east of Rogers either. I have to admit that, living as I do on Midwood II, my views are somewhat Lefferts Manor-centric.Bob Marvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12734112800580467028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-16413422186130844532014-10-03T09:13:44.773-04:002014-10-03T09:13:44.773-04:00You're right of course that it was more comple...You're right of course that it was more complex. The history is pretty clear on the subject though. For instance, Robert Moses himself was a well known racist. From his biographer Robert Caro:<br /><br /><i>That Moses was highhanded, racist and contemptuous of the poor draws no argument even from the most ardent revisionists. </i><br /><br />The Moses suburbanization plan was patently racist in philosophy and action. And while individuals may have had mixed emotions on race, the lines in NYC were firmly drawn along race, ethnicity and religion. At the bottom of the totem pole were the African-Americans. Once the borders became porous, it was all that much more reason to split.<br /><br />I would argue that your grandfather's clear racism (and my grandpa's) informed the "much larger forces" that you mention. My wife's father spoke of his grandfather as one of the "nice slaveowners" in North Carolina. That was certainly the oral history that was passed down, and speaks volumes about our fear of engaging the whole topic.<br /><br />The fact that we aren't explicit in our language of racism these days does nothing, in my view, to hide the underlying discomfort most folks have with mixing. Cultural difference is one thing; denying the systematic racism pervasive to everything we do - that's how we've gotten away with it for so long as a culture.<br /><br />THAT's why the cultural diversity of places like Flatbush is SO important. It can act as a model for the rest of the country. That there are so many mixed race families here is further proof that this is considered a safe, nurturing and instructive environment in which to raise the children who will one day be the "grown-ups." I don't have a lot of faith in our current crop of grown-ups however. Selfish, money-driven and tribal (generally), we're not the beacon to the world we may think we are. For every immigrant who "makes it here," and we glorify those stories, plenty live here in misery and poverty. Though the export of dollars to homelands is an indication of just how much worse it can be elsewhere.<br /><br />There's a reason why "The New Jim Crow" resonates with so many black folks. Clarkson FlatBedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13463744536115119388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-1891452459072915562014-10-03T08:49:43.421-04:002014-10-03T08:49:43.421-04:00FlatBed,
I just feel the "White Flight"...FlatBed,<br /><br />I just feel the "White Flight" story as told by others attributes a lot more racism to the victims of the suburbanization experiment than was actually present. Look I know there were racists. My grandfather would have had fit if he had lived to see my brother marry and have black children. But the forces at work were then much larger than racism on the individual level.<br /><br />I had a gay black professor in college who was in a major funk one morning and he told me about how he had been pulled over on the highway that weekend and basically treated like shit. But what really bothered him was that he would never be sure whether the cop was just an asshole or a racist or a homophobic bigot. If he had a label for what happened to him he could have incremented the proper mental counter and moved on. Unlike misogyny where you still hear things like "boys will be boys" or "boobs on the ground", there is thankfully much less explicit racism these days than a generation ago. This makes it harder to see and to fight. Think of how difficult it is for people to separate weather and global warming. All we see is the weather and the only weather we know well is the weather where we live.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963748889244937604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-89818111407608803972014-10-03T07:51:55.287-04:002014-10-03T07:51:55.287-04:00Oh wait, I forgot my main point! The nitpicking ov...Oh wait, I forgot my main point! The nitpicking over what whites are doing and what blacks are doing this week, last week, next month, etc, is moot. I'm not sticking up for anyone. I'm acknowledging that the forces and patterns at play are beyond what we can observe day to day.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00792646871333738725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-46029073412072640642014-10-03T07:47:12.093-04:002014-10-03T07:47:12.093-04:00Tim, I think that you are right, and people undere...Tim, I think that you are right, and people underestimate the level of distrust of public authority among communities of color, and therefore have a hard time relating to the fear of displacement and other effects of institutional racism.<br /><br />While it's a tale from days of yore (sort of) and not real estate related, Tuskegee is a devastating example of how black men were subjected to "experimentation," intentionally given syphilis so that researchers could observe the effects. Though that was a generation or two ago, the distrust lingers. In the last 30 years, NYC has engaged in an experiment in which our (ours, we need to own it) method for coping with financial disaster in the 70s was to gradually turn the city into as big of a tourist attraction as possible. Did the city have better options? Not sure. But regardless, the "cleaning up" that took place resulted in quite a lot of displacement. Then, suddenly, empty nested baby boomers decided that cities were THE place to live, including NYC, taking advantage of newly safe neighborhoods.<br /><br />Where racism comes in is in a "who cares?" attitude about the effects of citywide displacement and rapid cost increases on poor and moderate income folks, disproportionately affecting communities of color.<br /><br />What's kinda gross is that what I detect from *some* comments is that people are frustrated that there have not been enough changes in Lefferts - they wish to see the wholesale change that took place in the East Village, Hell's Kitchen, etc, hence the quick-to-dismiss-racism attitude. They feel entitled. In other east coast cities, municipalities totally got rid of their rent regulation laws, and 15-20 years later cities are unrecognizable. The South End in Boston is practically a retirement community at this point - go there and have a drink at a "lounge" if you don't believe me.<br /><br />NYC's rent laws are design to protect and prevent wholesale change, as they should. Doesn't always work, though, as even the most entitled commenters acknowledge (even enjoy!). Some of the more aggressive commenters have probably seen cities like Boston, Philly, Chicago, and NYC neighborhoods transform so dramatically that they feel entitled to see the same thing happen throughout Brooklyn. That's gross. People need to get a grip, think beyond their own doorstep, and quickly get hip to the idea that these are not just natural fluctuations in population. There are policy and economic forces at work, which, unfortunately, perpetuate racism via the "who cares about THEM?" attitude. We're guilty of it.<br /><br />I'm hoping that my verbose comment helps make the sort of racism that I *think* you're getting at become clearer. I am not sticking up for MTOPP at all because I don't believe that AB is actually motivated by injustice. PPEN has the right idea - mitigate as best we can.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00792646871333738725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-22625658838837878192014-10-02T22:45:39.309-04:002014-10-02T22:45:39.309-04:00Loving those anecdotes, Daniel. Really nice heartw...Loving those anecdotes, Daniel. Really nice heartwarming history.<br /><br />The census shows a massive dip in whites by the '60s and '70s, then it levels off, then it starts to creep up and then...bang. The '50s to the nows in the NYC metro area involves a detailed ethnic and racial movement. But I want to point out that the "happily mixed race" part was largely in the single family neighborhood of the Manor. The single family covenant was a huge factor. Down my way, there were virtually no white folks even a decade ago. Along Ocean too. But that's not really my point anyway...<br /><br />The point was about choice. The choice to move, the choice to stay, the choice to save for a downpayment then find someone to lend you the money to buy a place. It's good to have choices; bad to be denied them. That's all. Race plays a huge factor in all of it.<br /><br />If y'all hadn't noticed, I'm building the case that gentrification is as much about race as economics, and that economics themselves are fueled by race. RacISM. The ways that it plays out in front of our eyes is extraordinary. The level of denial by whites borders on unreal.<br /><br />I'm not alone in that analysis, nor am I trying to take some sort of scientific study to it. Far from it. I'm just trying to understand the world a little better.<br /><br />And as I dig deeper, I find plenty of reason to believe that we have neatly set aside the notions of equal opportunity that seemed so important during the civil rights struggles. It's like they disappeared from the discourse, morphing into a harsh critique of blacks that in many ways looks worse than before the 60's. The stereotypes, the blaming, the lack of trust and faith, the prison state, the welfare state, the lack of real opportunities for advancement and the very real impediments to free movement and upward mobility.<br /><br />None of you have to agree. I'm trying to keep my sense of humor, and though I've met some of you and like you a lot, some of you I think we'd be fine over a coffee. It's just chatter. And yet, I learn a lot from every comment. It informs my curiosity and sometimes, confirms my suspicions.<br /><br />Trust me, Dusters, Parkside Guys, No Slappzes, NYC Parents etc...I get way more hate mail than you do. So don't take it too hard.Clarkson FlatBedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13463744536115119388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-71943299628442368122014-10-02T20:52:42.747-04:002014-10-02T20:52:42.747-04:00FlatBed,
There is no need for scare quotes around...FlatBed,<br /><br />There is no need for scare quotes around how white folk chose to leave this neighborhood. Generations of my father in-law's white (Jewish) family lived here and they moved out over the course of many years for what they perceived as greener pastures. My father in-law's parents found a large affordable place in the Bronx, an aunt married a man in Queens, one uncle still works nearby but he married a Jamaican girl and moved to Westchester where she had found a good job... I could go on, but the point is they left for all the normal reasons people leave a place. Why the people moving in were largely black is a story that involves both de-jure and de-facto racism affecting opportunities for where black people could rent and buy, but I think Bob Marvin is right to describe PLG as having been a happily mixed race neighborhood for a long time.<br /><br />Normal rational choices can also be an aid gentrification. I wasn't pushed out of my rent-stabilized apartment in the East Village. I met a lovely girl and moved in with her. I'm sure someone better off moved in to the apartment I left behind.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963748889244937604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-71422483392082295352014-10-02T17:08:29.439-04:002014-10-02T17:08:29.439-04:00It wasn't animal poop.It wasn't animal poop.Clarkson FlatBedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13463744536115119388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-23419805088568832642014-10-02T17:00:20.203-04:002014-10-02T17:00:20.203-04:00Q - One shouldn't celebrate a taste for condes...Q - One shouldn't celebrate a taste for condescension.<br /><br />There was more than enough context to determine if the hypothetical landlord was engaged in something odious. <br /><br />I presented a common, straightforward scenario that landlords - both white and black - confront each day around here.<br /><br />But I suppose there just wasn't the type of information you regrettably seem to crave - information that allows you to expose hidden perfidies for the rest of us.<br /><br />So you generously provided your own peculiar narrative and introduced animal feces into the "conversation."rollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11196441049694802695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-9786995247656218442014-10-02T15:41:51.305-04:002014-10-02T15:41:51.305-04:00Pedantic? Sorry. I intended to be condescending. I...Pedantic? Sorry. I intended to be condescending. I apology for the unintended pedantry.<br /><br />This is not a polling site. I answered your question the way I did to suggest that I don't know whether that landlord is scrupulous or not because there is almost no information to go on, and certainly no suggestion that a law was broken. Not being regulated, there are probably as many scenarios as one can imagine. Some involve noise and dogs. Some involve changes in financial situations. Some involve pure unadulterated malice passive aggressiveness. Some may even involve the placing of poop into a mailbox - a true story worthy of a retelling over cherry lime rickeys.<br /><br />Put another way, your question was not useful to the conversation, and YOUR tone throughout has been obnoxious. It started with "grubby white conquistadors" and has devolved from there.Clarkson FlatBedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13463744536115119388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-12734732425474469452014-10-02T15:30:57.396-04:002014-10-02T15:30:57.396-04:00I don't recall asking you to clarify anything ...I don't recall asking you to clarify anything at all so I'm a bit puzzled by your pedantic tone.<br /><br />Anyway, I have you down as a "no," the hypothetical landlord described is not unscrupulous. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />rollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11196441049694802695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-61356715815794664002014-10-02T15:17:51.426-04:002014-10-02T15:17:51.426-04:00re: "Jump ahead a couple three decades and th...re: <i>"Jump ahead a couple three decades and the landlord is a black, non-US born seeker of prosperity who is exercising his right to either increase his cash flow or help a relative, and it's possible the two goals coincide."</i><br /><br />How do the two goals (1. increasing cash flow and 2. helping a relative) relate to this landlord's racial/ethnic background?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-13074641500970883592014-10-02T14:55:21.366-04:002014-10-02T14:55:21.366-04:00I just went to a meeting at Metrotech and I come b...I just went to a meeting at Metrotech and I come back and y'all have gone nuts! Good for you...I like the back and forth.<br /><br />Duster, the question of what an owner of a small building (less than six units) does is beyond the scope of this conversation. Since they're not regulated, various scenarios could fill a warehouse. To a certain degree, these folks can do whatever the hell they want, and probably do. Because unless you send a spy, you're never gonna know. <br /><br />When a vacancy occurs in such a building, I pretty much ASSUME the landlord will look for the highest rent possible. Am I wrong to assume this? If that landlord chooses a white over a black tenant, and both are qualified, and the reason is race, I would consider that unscrupulous. But there would be a million ways to mask it, right?<br /><br />How's that? Clear enough for you?Clarkson FlatBedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13463744536115119388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-44981471374419037092014-10-02T14:49:58.269-04:002014-10-02T14:49:58.269-04:00no_slappz,
Escaping the racism and anti-semitism ...no_slappz,<br /><br />Escaping the racism and anti-semitism of my South Slope neighbors wasn't my MAIN reason for moving here; there were plenty of positive reasons to buy a house in PLG, not the least of which was that it was very much safer here than in my former neighborhood. Still, getting away from bigoted rants was a nice bonus.Bob Marvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12734112800580467028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-73719736154499599352014-10-02T14:27:18.942-04:002014-10-02T14:27:18.942-04:00Yikes, that deathless anti-Semitism seems unstoppa...Yikes, that deathless anti-Semitism seems unstoppable, even in the "new" Bushwick.<br /><br />http://www.bkmag.com/2014/10/02/bushwick-coffee-shop-posts-anti-semitic-rant-calls-jewish-neighbors-greedy-infiltrators/no_slappzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04207475509053402475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-5445374799754613472014-10-02T14:01:20.699-04:002014-10-02T14:01:20.699-04:00One can't afford to be a landlord if one canno...One can't afford to be a landlord if one cannot afford to take non-paying tenants to court, whether the rental units or stabilized or market rate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1541468051247516447.post-46991241731954180692014-10-02T13:40:04.751-04:002014-10-02T13:40:04.751-04:00disco princess asks: By the way, why does the ethn...disco princess asks: <i>By the way, why does the ethnic background of the landlord matter? Why mention it? </i><br /><br />Why? Bob Marvin said he moved out of the South Slope neighborhood to escape the racists (anti-black) and anti-Semites who were there when he was. Since then, things have changed. Jump ahead a couple three decades and the landlord is a black, non-US born seeker of prosperity who is exercising his right to either increase his cash flow or help a relative, and it's possible the two goals coincide.<br /><br />The irony comes in when today's Park and South Slope are compared with PLG. In the context of political organizing in PLG, the anti-white racism is boundless. However, it's nothing but sound and fury, and nothing will come of it, something the disorganized ranters of MTOPP and PPEN fail to grasp.<br /><br />no_slappzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04207475509053402475noreply@blogger.com