The bizarre random senseless facts are emerging, and they just get weirder. I've heard a lot of random details from various insiders to date, but the Daily News seems to have put together most of the relevant narrative here. And this chilling security cam vid that the NYPD has released of some of the alleged thugs suggests the cops don't have them apprehended yet. Any info, please, 800-577-TIPS or 311 will get you there. The man, indeed a neighbor, may survive. He lives on Flatbush and was on his way home from work. The detail that really gets me, and I had to read it three times to be sure I read it right, was that they shot up the deli, went outside for a bit, mugged around, then shot the guy. So that footage is AFTER they shot the first two rounds and in any reasonable situation they should have been running, since gunfire should have had 911 calls streaming in sending cops there immediately. Right? Right? Right? Tell me I'm right?
It would appear to me, that these drunk guys are looking down the street to see if anyone noticed whether they just shot at the poor cowering convenience store worker, who is most likley praying for his life in the back of his store off to the left of the camera while they're laughing nervously. It's a very, very dark human moment that alcohol surely had a heavy hand in. That it's caught on tape...I can only hope it helps the case, because it's just too too strange for words.
29 comments:
if you come across a bodega and find a group of shady characters loitering outside at 2am in the morning, steer clear. I don't want to sound like I am frightening anyone but people need to be more of their surroundings especially when you buy something at a bodega with undesirables hanging around in a area that isn't well...safe after dark. Yes, that area could use some light and beat cops as well. I hope this man pulls through.
Thanks for the tip, Captain Obvious at 3:07 am. We needed that sage advice..
Sometimes these things happen so fast that you don't even have time to know that there is something going on. What bothers me the MOST about this story is that there were no 911 calls made. WHY NOT? Did no one hear the shots? Does no one care? Are we that used to hearing gun fire that we don't even think that it matters to call the police? SMH.
This footage is frightening. It appears the suspects saw the victim at the window of the deli and are hanging around to see if he notices anything is wrong inside. Also, seeing gunman turn around to pull the gun from his pocket and then hide it behind his back is chilling.
I know one of the guys on the tape (the one with the white sneakers). Yes, I am reporting him.
I hope that's not a joke, snitching, because that's the kind of stuff that has to start happening in our communities if we want the crime to ever a) go down and b) be taken seriously by the cops.
Had cops been patrolling the area when these dirtbags were loitering in front of the deli, would it have been a surprise if they decided to conduct a Stop & Frisk?
Here's to hoping Snitching really does know the identity of one of the thugs and actually reports him.
If he follows through, it shouldn't take too long to round up both of them.
Maybe someone should write a letter to the number two cop, Chief of Department, Joe Esposito, explaining the situation. He lives in the area.
Its absolutely not a joke. The police detectives are on their way. The individual with the white sneakers has been ID'ed by three other people who also called the precinct. I have no doubt the shooters will be caught soon.
Leave it up to the NYPD to be "on their way" and still not show up 3hrs later. The dude is chillin' outside right now, kicking the shit like nothing's wrong.
Anon at 4:36: Shoot me an email at timothyjamesthomas@gmail.com and I'm happy to help you get this guy. Some may call me gullible, but on the small chance you're legit, I'm asking that you please reach out to me. Regardless, my experience over the years has been to never just wait. I call again and again, just like with a delivery order or a car service, and not leave things to chance.
If anyone's having a hard time sleeping over it, snitching emailed me and all is well. More when the cops let me tell you what up.
Well that's good news especially considering that others had allegedly also come forward. That's what we need to deal with community violence - and one day it'll be called being an ethical person with real world values, not a "snitch".
How many times have we heard "the police cannot be everywhere. We need help from citizens"? And then someone suspected of attempted felony murder is outside in plain sight in the middle of the afternoon; the NYPD is alerted and three hours later still haven't arrived?!!
This is inexcusable. Mr. CF, I hope in your followup you can get us an explanation for this.
And to "Snitching," thank you. Consider changing your screen name to something that better reflects your courage and resolve.
Diak: Like I said, there are some details I'd prefer not to share til it's appropriate, but let's give the benefit of the doubt for a couple days. There are some extenuating circumstances here. snitch was given an update and is sitting tight. remember, when you call anonymously, there's no way for the cops to call you back to say why they're not coming...
Mr. CF, I hear you. Look forward to the full story and your followup. Thanks for your efforts on everyone's behalf.
Meanwhile, can we assume that the star of the bodega video is in custody?
Happy to read there are some leads on apprehending these miscreants. Good job on the follow up Tim.
In response to crime busters comment on stop and frisks, the stats say the cops are about as likely to catch criminals with guns as pigs are to fly. .12% of these unlawful stops yield guns. It's also a patently racist and unconstitutional. Police's own reports of More than 95,000 STOPS lacked reasonable, articulable suspicion and thus violated the Fourth Amendment.
Someone should write a letter to Mr. Esposito and tell him to cut that obviously ineffective practice out. It doesn't work, and it makes the community less likely to cooperate when madness like this happens. We should be at the very least be as outraged over the rampant illegal actions being engaged in by NYPD DAILY as we are over random acts of violence by thugs.
Apparently, per Detective Martinos at the 71, an arrest has been made in the shooting. Here's hoping it's the right guy and he goes away for good.
theoldspeakjournal writes:
In response to crime busters comment on stop and frisks, the stats say the cops are about as likely to catch criminals with guns as pigs are to fly. .12% of these unlawful stops yield guns.
I see. How many terrorists have been caught at airports trying to board commercial airliners?
Answer: Close to zero.
Why? Because the Stop & Frisk to which every air traveler MUST submit is a superb deterrent. It's worked like a charm for the last 11+ years. However, the practice does need some refining.
It's also a patently racist and unconstitutional.
It's neither. However, it's accurate to say the criminals themselves are racist. Attacks on blacks and hispanics keep cops busy full time. With the extraordinary imbalance of victims -- so many blacks and hispanics -- it's remarkable how few criminal acts are defined as "bias crimes".
Police's own reports of More than 95,000 STOPS lacked reasonable, articulable suspicion and thus violated the Fourth Amendment.
STOPS. Not Stops & Frisks. Just stops. The Fourth Amendment is about Search and Seizure. A Stop is not a Search, nor is it a Seizure.
Someone should write a letter to Mr. Esposito and tell him to cut that obviously ineffective practice out.
Yeah. That's why NY City's crime rate is way down while Chicago is a shooting gallery.
It doesn't work, and it makes the community less likely to cooperate when madness like this happens.
Yeah. Crime is way down in NY City. Why? Was a cure for criminality dumped in the water system?
Don't let facts trip you up, there, oldspeakjournal.
We should be at the very least be as outraged over the rampant illegal actions being engaged in by NYPD DAILY as we are over random acts of violence by thugs.
Aha. So it's the presence of the cops that actually CAUSES crime? Is that it?
Try a little thought experiment. What would happen if the the NYPD were disbanded? How would you ensure your own safety if there were no police department?
As for your notion of Random Acts of Violence. Random? Really? Maybe you don't know the definition of Random. Seems you don't.
If violence occurred in a truly Random way, it wouldn't follow obvious patterns and occur in the same places almost all the time. But it does.
In response to Crime Buster:
I see, so the fact the less than one percent of 95,000 stops and frisks yield gun possession = Stop and frisks work. Right... Even though NYC has been one of the safest big cities in the world since before this pointless practice was instituted. The reason couldn't possibly be that most young Black and Latino men (who make up 84% of the stops) don't carry guns right? Yes I would say the practice needs some refining. Lets start with stopping and frisking young white men in Newtown, Oak Creek, Aurora and the countless other affluent suburbs where mass shootings usually occur. Or stopping and frisking people wearing $5,000 suits on wall st, where the greatest financial crimes in history have and are as I type taking place and no one has gone to jail for. I guarantee you if that shit started happening, stop and frisk would be banned.
Criminals are generally not racist. To equate racism with same race crime is silly. Crime is however highly correlated with unemployment and by extension poverty, which are both higher in poor disadvantaged neighborhoods. What is racist and illegal, is focusing specific law enforcement policy on particular segments of the population with no reasonable suspicion or evidence of wrongdoing.
I'll just quote the report I referenced to clear up your confusion on the difference between "STOPS" and "Stop and Frisks":
"The report further shows that, based on the information recorded on NYPD stop-and-frisk forms by police officers themselves, more than 95,000 stops lacked reasonable articulable suspicion and therefore violated the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures. Only 6% of stops result in arrests, only 1.8% in seizure of contraband, and only .12% in seizure of weapons.
Although the overall number of stops decreased between April and September 2012, the extremely high racial disparities and extremely low rates of arrest and weapons recovery remained the same. Moreover, the number of stops recorded between January 1 and March 31, 2012 was the highest of any calendar quarter on record."
If you can explain to me how it is legal for a cop to stop a citizen with no reasonable or articulable suspicion of wrongdoing, I'd love to hear read it. I'm just saying if cops are reporting their "STOPS" on Stop and Frisk forms, how are "STOPS" and "Stop and Frisks" different?
Yes the NY crime rate is way down, and Chicago is a shooting gallery, but Stop and Frisk is not the reason. DC, the former murder capital of the world has experienced an even steeper drop in crime, sans stop and frisk. They didn't harass their black and brown population incessantly, they just offered reward money for info on crime. And then of course there's the inconvenient little fact that gun violence in NYC significantly dropped last year in conjunction with the huge drop in stop and frisks. So there's that.
Again I'll assert the fact that crime has been on the decline consistently in the city, and nationwide since the 1990's long before Stop and Frisk existed. So no, it is not the cure for criminality. Let the cops themselves tell you the real reasons:
"NYPD insiders say the decline in gun violence is largely attributable to laser-like deployment of manpower to target crime flare-ups and to the department's focus on identifying drug and gang crews prone to use weapons.
“It’s the use of cops and Impact Zones, targeted deployment and building cases against these crews that will be the reasons for the drop in shootings,” one top cop said. “To a large degree it debunks the line that stop-and-frisks prevented shootings.”
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20121226/new-york-city/gun-violence-declines-this-year-alongside-huge-drop-stop-and-frisks#ixzz2O5hRzmTX
So I would suggest you not let the facts trip YOU up Crime Buster. :-D
In response to Crime Buster:
I see, so the fact the less than one percent of 95,000 stops and frisks yield gun possession = Stop and frisks work. Right... Even though NYC has been one of the safest big cities in the world since before this pointless practice was instituted. The reason couldn't possibly be that most young Black and Latino men (who make up 84% of the stops) don't carry guns right? Yes I would say the practice needs some refining. Lets start with stopping and frisking young white men in Newtown, Oak Creek, Aurora and the countless other affluent suburbs where mass shootings usually occur. Or stopping and frisking people wearing $5,000 suits on wall st, where the greatest financial crimes in history have and are as I type taking place and no one has gone to jail for. I guarantee you if that shit started happening, stop and frisk would be banned.
Criminals are generally not racist. To equate racism with same race crime is silly. Crime is however highly correlated with unemployment and by extension poverty, which are both higher in poor disadvantaged neighborhoods. What is racist and illegal, is focusing specific law enforcement policy on particular segments of the population with no reasonable suspicion or evidence of wrongdoing.
I'll just quote the report I referenced to clear up your confusion on the difference between "STOPS" and "Stop and Frisks":
"The report further shows that, based on the information recorded on NYPD stop-and-frisk forms by police officers themselves, more than 95,000 stops lacked reasonable articulable suspicion and therefore violated the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures. Only 6% of stops result in arrests, only 1.8% in seizure of contraband, and only .12% in seizure of weapons.
Although the overall number of stops decreased between April and September 2012, the extremely high racial disparities and extremely low rates of arrest and weapons recovery remained the same. Moreover, the number of stops recorded between January 1 and March 31, 2012 was the highest of any calendar quarter on record."
If you can explain to me how it is legal for a cop to stop a citizen with no reasonable or articulable suspicion of wrongdoing, I'd love to hear read it. I'm just saying if cops are reporting their "STOPS" on Stop and Frisk forms, how are "STOPS" and "Stop and Frisks" different?
Yes the NY crime rate is way down, and Chicago is a shooting gallery, but Stop and Frisk is not the reason. DC, the former murder capital of the world has experienced an even steeper drop in crime, sans stop and frisk. They didn't harass their black and brown population incessantly, they just offered reward money for info on crime. And then of course there's the inconvenient little fact that gun violence in NYC significantly dropped last year in conjunction with the huge drop in stop and frisks. So there's that.
Again I'll assert the fact that crime has been on the decline consistently in the city, and nationwide since the 1990's long before Stop and Frisk existed. So no, it is not the cure for criminality. Let the cops themselves tell you the real reasons:
"NYPD insiders say the decline in gun violence is largely attributable to laser-like deployment of manpower to target crime flare-ups and to the department's focus on identifying drug and gang crews prone to use weapons.
“It’s the use of cops and Impact Zones, targeted deployment and building cases against these crews that will be the reasons for the drop in shootings,” one top cop said. “To a large degree it debunks the line that stop-and-frisks prevented shootings.”
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20121226/new-york-city/gun-violence-declines-this-year-alongside-huge-drop-stop-and-frisks#ixzz2O5hRzmTX
So I would suggest you not let the facts trip YOU up Crime Buster. :-D
And yes actually the presence of cops do create crime. Mainly to meet quotas. Read it and weep. SMDH...
http://www.thenation.com/article/173397/audio-new-yorks-police-union-worked-nypd-set-arrest-and-summons-quotas
You should ask parents in Newtown, Aurora or Columbine how random acts of violence are. O_o
theoldspeakjournal,
I see you at the ready with all the canards of those who, when it comes to crime, can't accept the obvious.
Sure, Stop & Frisk guys on Wall Street. What would you find? A loaded stock certificate? You need to stay on topic, which the way to reduce violent crime, especially shootings. I can tell from your comment that you don't know about white collar crime or how often guys go to jail for financial offenses. But, as you should have figured out by now, through the last financial crisis, virtually everyone on Wall Street followed the rules.
You can argue the rules themselves are the problem, but there's almost no examples of brokerage firms and banks actually breaking laws. So, don't waste your argumentative capital on a red herring.
As you said, not many guns are grabbed during Stops & Frisks. Just like virtually NO ONE is caught trying to board a commercial airliner with a bomb in his pocket. However, No Hijacking for the last decade -- Because -- it's tough to get past security with something really dangerous.
Get it? Deterrence. It works.
It's evidence ofyour sad command of logic that you'd raise the subject of "mass shootings" which we'll define as the Sandy Hook or Aurora type of shooting as the counter argument.
Add up the total number of victims of all the mass shootings since WWII. What do you get? You get a number so small it's a rounding error compared with the total slaughter committed by street thugs taking out victims one at a time. So, if there were no more mass killings like Sandy Hook ever again, the remaining 99.99%, one at a time shootings, would still tally up to their depressing number.
However, IF shootings in white communities were as common as they are in black communities, you can bet the cops would Stop & Frisk in those white communities with the same zealousness that seems to bother you when those stopped are blacks.
Meanwhile, on one hand you offer some facts that support my position...
"NYPD insiders say the decline in gun violence is largely attributable to laser-like deployment of manpower to target crime flare-ups and to the department's focus on identifying drug and gang crews prone to use weapons.
“It’s the use of cops and Impact Zones, targeted deployment and building cases against these crews that will be the reasons for the drop in shootings,” one top cop said."
...you seem to ignore what you know and torture your view to pretend it says something other than the fact that police pressure keeps a lid on crime. The "laser-like deployment of manpower" includes Stop & Frisk.
By the way, a Stop is just that. Cop confronts you and asks some questions, asks for an ID, and sizes up the situation. Frisk, well, I think you know a frisk involves a procedure that starts with a pat-down. Seems to happen to me more than others at the airport.
Moreover, as I stated, the 4th Amendment hasn't been violated, as you know. That fact that you claim otherwise isn't persuasive.
Some thugs do alter their behavior to avoid arrest. They leave their guns at home. Deterrence.
Meanwhile, last year in NY City there were 419 homicides. Down from 2,240 in 1990. Perhaps you can argue that a contributing reason for the decline in homicides is that many of the likely perpetrators were themselves killed during the slaughter that peaked in 1990, and many others went to jail for a long time. But, in fact a lot of today's killers were born after 1990, or maybe they were very young at that time.
Yeah, the usual pathologies that contribute to crime were present last year. Why do these conditions cause blacks and hispanics to commit murder at many times the rate of whites? The number of whites murdered in NY City last year was pretty close to zero. Maybe five or 10. Do you believe there are no poor whites in NY City who live in areas mired in all the urban pathologies?
I'm sure I'll regret responding to "crime buster" (aka "owner"?) but he wrote something with with which I agree (albeit with a MAJOR caveat)
"Get it? Deterrence. It works".
Well, yes, it does, and I'm sure that "stop and frisk" does actually deter some thugs from carrying guns, which, obviously, is a good thing. HOWEVER, I think the larger question remains, of whether that additional deterrence might be VASTLY outweighed by the problems created by interfering with very large numbers of law-abiding citizens, going about their day to day business--people who would never dream of carrying a gun, or engaging in any sort of criminal behavior. IMO the relationship between the NYPD and the population of the area they patrol is extremely important and I think some of the NYPD's practices are actually counterproductive.
To Crime Buster:
You're right, agreed, I'll stay on topic. :-D I'm not gonna go back and forth debating the easily verifiable research, reports, police and victims accounts I cited. They are not canards. The facts are, THE POLICE THEMSELVES ARE SAYING STOP AND FRISK DOESN'T WORK. The Police themselves are saying they've been forced by superiors and their union to harass and arrest black and brown people who've done nothing wrong to meet "activity goals" and make overtime filling out bogus reports at the end of their shifts. Police are actually being penalized and retaliated against for not keeping their "activity" up. Stop and frisk is a prefect way to keep "activity" up when there is a a dearth of crime to prosecute. It makes lawful citizens distrust and dislike cops. It encourages police to see and manufacture wrongdoing where there is none. This only happens in poor communities of color. It is not effective in getting guns off the streets or preventing crime, as multiple police, academic, and investigative reports confirm. It is your choice not to acknowledge the facts. As evidenced by your choice to use the quote I cited, while conveniently omitting the part where the cop said "To a large degree it debunks the line that stop-and-frisks prevented shootings.” You literally just accused me of ignoring and yourself ignored the crucial point of the quote, then added shit that wasn't there to fit your baseless argument. Nice canard use there BTW. :-D Read it again. The cop did not say laser like focus included stop and frisk. he said the laser like focus "debunks the line that stop-and-frisks prevented shootings." LOL. So no, the facts do not support your argument, they support mine. :-D
You also chose to ignore the fact that gun violence declined in 2012 in conjunction with the sharp decline in the use of stop and frisk.
You also chose to ignore the fact that Washington DC dramatically reduced its gun violence WITHOUT THE USE OF STOP AND FRISK.
Your argument that boarding airlines is the same stop and frisk is classic case of false equivalence. EVERYONE boarding a plane expects to be non-confrontationally screened via xray machine and may at worst be subjected to an enhanced pat down if they refuse the electronic scan. The vast majority of people subjected to stop and frisks are black and brown, and are not given a choice to refuse. They're approached in a confrontational manner. They're usually treated like a criminal, hands up against a wall, legs spread wide, & aggressively frisked for reasons only known to Police. If they refuse to be searched, they're usually verbally abused and arrested.
Unemployment, unequal law enforcement, poverty, lack of access to quality education, healthy food, adequate housing and opportunity are not pathologies. They are not specific to urban areas and black or brown people. They are forms of societally accepted structural violence that most who don't live in those conditions ignore, then blithely wonder why things are the way they are with people who live in those deleterious and debilitating conditions. They have the luxury wondering why and not really caring to know. I encourage you to find out why things are the way they are. Though you probably won't like what you find. :-D
To Bob Marvin:
Yes that is the question, but I think it's been largely answered. Police, citizens, investigative journalists and researchers have all come to pretty much the same conclusion on it. Stop and frisk is not a deterrent. 99.7% of the time contraband and or guns are not found. It is counterproductive in that it build resentment and distrust in law abiding citizens, damaging the relationship between the cops and the community.
Stuff like this makes me want the gentrification process in PLG to fasten. The western side of PLG is definitely safer than the eastern (for obvious reasons, the western is attached to Windsor Terrace, while the eastern side is attached to Wingate and Crown Heights).
Sigh.
Hmmm. Do I dare respond? So much, so much...I'll keep it simple. I like the every so clever way you used the word fasten!
The western edge of PLG is attached to Prospect Park; Windsor Terrace is past Flatbush and the Parade Grounds on the southwest edge of the park. The two are far from contiguous.
Don't be too tough on Anon. 9:20 PM Babs; I suspect that he/she is a newcomer who hasn't yet ventured as far west as Ocean Ave, and doesn't actually know where Prospect Park, or Windsor Terrace are located :-)
I'm trusting, Bob, by the smiley emoticon at the end of your comment, that you're just ignoring the rest of Anons comment, the meat as it were?
LOL CFB, whether you respond or not won't matter, I'd imagine many newcomers feel the same way. I'm thinkin Bob is probably right. The sad fact is for most folk, perception trumps actual facts. :-D
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